Please, explain this to me like to a 4yo child

OSS specific Linux discussion (x86/amd64)

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Please, explain this to me like to a 4yo child

Postby Lockheed » Thu May 05, 2011 8:48 am

I found OSS4 to be by far the most superior audio system on linux. Therefore, I cannot fathom the following:

Why won't the developers get it to support suspend/resume?!?

Lack of this functionality makes OSS4 virtually useless for most laptops!
And yes, I am familiar with the infamous 'workaround' but killing all audio-using apps prior to suspend is not a solution. It is an utter absurd!
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Re: Please, explain this to me like to a 4yo child

Postby dev » Tue May 10, 2011 7:46 pm

reason is that each OS has a different mechanism for suspend/resume.......when OSS was being developed Solaris and BSD didn't even have concepts to deal with ACPI & power management. The honest truth is we just got lazy. But one can retrofit PM support into OSS. the oss_ich audio driver has some skeletal code for PM

http://opensound.hg.sourceforge.net/hgw ... /oss_ich.c (line 1435 onwards)
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Re: Please, explain this to me like to a 4yo child

Postby Lockheed » Wed May 11, 2011 6:02 am

I see. Is there any roadmap that includes suspend implementation?
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Re: Please, explain this to me like to a 4yo child

Postby dev » Sun May 15, 2011 7:40 am

Lockheed wrote:I see. Is there any roadmap that includes suspend implementation?


again, we have suspend/resume in the roadmap for OSS - the problem is now finding time to code or getting other contributors to OSS to code.
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Re: Please, explain this to me like to a 4yo child

Postby Lockheed » Sun May 15, 2011 8:36 am

Well, I am running into the risk of talking about things I know little about, but I am guessing OSS is being developed in other departments anyway and I would think suspend/resume is such a major thing, the developing team would want do drop whatever else they are doing and get it done first.
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Re: Please, explain this to me like to a 4yo child

Postby cladisch » Fri May 20, 2011 11:56 am

The problem is not that other things are developed in preference to suspend/resume, but that there is no development.
There is no funding and very little developer manpower.
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Re: Please, explain this to me like to a 4yo child

Postby igorzwx » Fri May 20, 2011 1:18 pm

cladisch wrote:The problem is... that there is no development.


The absence of development does not always produces problems.
On the contrary, problems tend to be caused by development and innovations.
Examples: ALSA, PulseAudio, Chernobyl, Fukushima, and so on.
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Re: Please, explain this to me like to a 4yo child

Postby Lockheed » Fri May 20, 2011 4:27 pm

igorzwx wrote:The absence of development does not always produces problems.

IMHO in case of OSS it is the problem because it lacks a function fundamental for home users and I imagine home users are the largest group using sound on linux.
Last edited by Lockheed on Fri May 20, 2011 4:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Please, explain this to me like to a 4yo child

Postby Lockheed » Fri May 20, 2011 4:30 pm

igorzwx wrote:The absence of development does not always produces problems.

IMHO in case of OSS it is the problem because it lacks a function fundamental for home users and I imagine home users are the largest group using sound on linux.
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Re: Please, explain this to me like to a 4yo child

Postby igorzwx » Fri May 20, 2011 5:03 pm

Lockheed wrote:
igorzwx wrote:The absence of development does not always produces problems.

IMHO in case of OSS it is the problem because it lacks a function fundamental for home users and I imagine home users are the largest group using sound on linux.


It is not a problem, because home users tend to use Mac OS or Windows rather than Linux.
The real problem is that web-conferencing is going to become as important as e-mail in the near future.
You may need it working on notebooks, netbooks, smartphones, etc.
That is why Microsoft paid billions for Skype.

On Linux, you have PulseAudio instead of web-conferencing. This is the problem.
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Re: Please, explain this to me like to a 4yo child

Postby igorzwx » Tue Feb 07, 2012 1:31 pm

waterlaz wrote:Could anyone give me some details on why doesn't suspend work with oss?
Or perhaps point to a nice document about what should a general device driver do to support suspend?

A big thank you in advance.


You may try to study this:
pm-utils can be thought of as a collection of shell scripts that wrap the kernel mode suspend/resume with the various hacks. These hacks are needed to work around bugs in drivers and subsystems that are not yet aware of suspend. It is easily extensible by putting custom hooks into a directory, which can either be done by the system administrator or those hooks can be part of a package, especially if this package needs special attention during a system suspend or power state transition.
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Pm-utils

All this "very advanced open-source power management crap" (suspend/hibernation, etc.) can be completely disabled in GRUB (kernel boot options https://help.ubuntu.com/community/BootO ... el_Options ). Otherwise, it may destroy your notebook. Read this, for example:

Bug #370173: laptop overheats and suddenly shuts down/off
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+sour ... mments=all

You do not need to study all those lunatic ravings, of course. It might be sufficient to read the title. In short, "laptop overheats and suddenly shuts down", when the processor is going to melt.

A common Linux problem is missing ACPI functionality (fans not running, screens not turning off when the lid is closed, etc.) https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/DSDT


If fans are not running, the processor might be melted. Right?
In theory, PCs and notebooks should automatically shut down, before processors are completely melted. In practice, it may not always work.
Code: Select all
$ acpi -V | grep critical
Thermal 0: trip point 0 switches to mode critical at temperature 95.0 degrees C

ACPI is a kind of "very advanced crap" http://en.gentoo-wiki.com/wiki/ACPI It is ill-documented, of course. The available information in Arch and Gentoo Wikis is outdated and/or misleading. You have to find out how it works on this or that particular hardware by trial and error. Such experiments may destroy processors, of course. Therefore, a sensible person may prefer to make such experiments with very old notebooks. Since PulseAudio tends to load CPU, it might be utilized for melting processors. Adobe Flash plugin (for Linux) can also help to melt processors (you may try to run several instances of Adobe Flash with YouTube).

Linux is so designed that it tends to overload CPU. Processors should be cooled. This consumes a huge amount of energy. Therefore, the so-called "advanced power management" does not make much sense. It might be reasonable to disable it, because it may destroy processors. It makes sense, of course, to remove PulseAudio, Gnome, and other "very advanced open-source crap" to reduce CPU load.

If you want to save energy (and prevent your processor from melting), you have to clean fans http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pA7zMnzYAWo It is advisable to study an official service manual, because certain notebooks (e.g. Dell Latitude D531) are designed in such a way that you may need to disconnect keyboard, display, the palm rest, etc. First of all, read the safety instructions.
CAUTION: To avoid electrostatic discharge, ground yourself by using a wrist grounding strap or by periodically touching an unpainted metal surface, such as the back panel on the computer.

If you touch chips (e.g. memory) by your fingers, they might be destroyed by electrostatic discharge.
Cleaning a System
One of the most important operations in a good preventive maintenance program is regular and thorough cleaning of the system inside and out. Unlike desktop systems, laptop systems don't have air flowing through all their parts, so they are more immune to dust internally and normally don't have to be disassembled for cleaning. Laptops do, however, usually have fans that draw air through cooling ducts with heatsinks mounted inside them. Dust buildup in these cooling passages can be a problem because the dust acts as a thermal insulator, which prevents proper cooling. Excessive heat shortens the life of components and adds to the thermal stresses caused by greater temperature changes between the system's full power and sleep/power-off states. Additionally, the dust can contain conductive elements that can cause partial short circuits in a system. Other elements in dust and dirt can accelerate corrosion of electrical contacts, resulting in improper connections. Regularly blowing out any dust and debris from the cooling passages (through the vents) will benefit that system in the long run...
Cigarette smoke contains chemicals that can conduct electricity and cause corrosion of computer parts. The smoke residue can infiltrate the entire system, causing corrosion and contamination of electrical contacts and sensitive components, such as floppy drive read/write heads and optical drive lens assemblies. You should avoid smoking near computer equipment and encourage your company to develop and enforce a similar policy. http://www.quepublishing.com/articles/a ... x?p=102215

Thus, the first thing to learn is how to clean fans. If you are not experienced in such things, you can easily destroy something. The "service manuals" for Dell notebooks are available for download on the Dell website. Dell notebooks (and other crap of the sort) are so designed that fans must be cleaned on a regular basis.

If your old notebook is still working after cleaning fans, you may try to install Lm_sensors https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Lm_sensors Lm-sensors are also crap, of course.

Arch Linux users keep destroying their processors:
2012-02-09 08:37:19
Hi. I have the problem with the temperature. The notebook gets too hot. I have read and tried everything in the web but the problem persist. The sad part is that the same notebook with windows has much less temperature.
Sometimes the notebook turn off by itself due a high temperature. Almost daily.
I'll put all the informacion of my pc and hopefully you can help me because i dont know what to do.
General
Lenovo G460
Video Intel HD Graphics
Intel(R) Core(TM) i3 CPU M 380 @ 2.53GHz
3Gb de RAM
Arquitectura x86_64
Kernel Linux 3.2.5-1-ARCH

Normally the temperature is over 70. When i decompress a big zip or I have 3 flash videos open the temperature rises to over 80

Please please please help me!
https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=135402

Nobody is going to help, of course.
He seems to be a GNU/PulseALSA enthusiast from Argentina, he does not seem to be able to learn from experience (our brothers in Vanuatu also fail to learn from experience http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmlYe2KS0-Y ). "Normally the temperature is over 70" - this means that the processor may soon be destroyed (if it is not already melted), and the problem may solve itself (in this sense).

One may wonder how many Lenovo laptops have already been destroyed by Arch Linux.
[Arch Linux] Lenovo Ideapad U460 overheats very easily and loud fan
My Lenovo Ideapad U460 overheats even when I have 10% CPU usage while my fan is often on and very loud even while I'm using very low resources. Any suggestions?
I've been having this issue for a long time and just figured it's just how this laptop performs.
https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=143580

In this particular case, cleaning of fans is not likely to help, because it is a Lenovo notebook. The cause of problem seems to be the "very advanced open-source power management crap" which can be disabled with a proper kernel boot option https://help.ubuntu.com/community/BootO ... el_Options There is a risk, of course, that processor might be melted, because the fan does not work with Linux for some strange reason.

IMB/Lenovo notebooks are so designed that fans may work normally without cleaning for 10 years. Although cleaning is advisable, IMB/Lenovo notebooks are not supposed to be cleaned in the same way as Dell notebooks and other crap. The work should be done by professionals who have special tools such as "computer vacuum cleaner", etc. http://www.quepublishing.com/articles/a ... x?p=102215 The service manual for Lenovo G460 can be downloaded here: http://notebookservicemanual.com/ja/len ... guide.html

You may find a lot of "CPU overheating" stories on Arch Linux forum https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewforum.php?id=31
For example:
arch + samsung r540 = CPU overheating
Today 13:21:23 (2012.02.27)

Some time ago I installed arch on my laptop (samsung r540), and I've been experiencing problems with overheating ever since.
Every time I need to do something that requires CPU power (in my case mainly compiling/installing form aur) my cpu temp spikes instantly and laptop shuts down. This is quite frustrating, since it's preventing me form doing any work.

...the temperature spikes instantly to 90C and the system shuts down. Same thing if I try to compile something, encode/convert audio/video or do anything that requires cpu usage.
Before shutdown I see message about throttling down my cpu speed because temperature is above threshold, then I get message about critical CPU temp and system shut downs.
I hear the cpu vent going up when the temperature goes above 80C [!!!]
https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=136618

Arch Linux is not for "doing any work", it is for destroying computers.
This should be obvious, but the Arch Linux users constantly fail to learn from experience.
This might be a perfect example of "stupid business". There might to be a correlation (if not a causal relationship) between deafness and stupidity. The story of PulseAudio proves this point. Not seldom, perhaps, stupidity (or lack of knowledge) might have caused deafness http://www.sennheiser.com/sennheiser/ho ... ing_living
The deaf might be perfectly happy with PulseALSA. The stupid may consume any crap, if it is said to be "advanced". The purpose of symbolic words (such as "advanced", "progress", "freedom", and the like) is to provoke enthusiasm among the stupid. This is how Cargo cults work. To paraphrase Alfred Korzybski, those who rule the symbols, rule the stupid
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Korzybski
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Alfred_Korzybski

Why does nobody help? Because the Arch Linux forum is not a forum. It is something else. Moderators keep practicing a sort of censorship and enforcing PulseAudio ideology instead of moderating discussions. If dissidents attempt to protest, they are diagnosed as "dumb" or "stupid" and topics are closed. For example: https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?pid=856580 In short, the Arch Linux forum is a kind of anti-democratic institution, and, therefore, sensible people may not like to participate. The basic principle of GNU/PulseALSA ideology is rather obvious: the ends justify the means. It seems to be a kind of radical Trotskyism, or something of the sort.
A variety of desires for collective benefit coupled with apparently irrational strategies to attain those desires have attracted the label cargo cult. Such labeling occasionally evokes tragedy, playing upon the melancholy future of unfulfilled desire. But most often, cargo-cult labeling highlights an irrationality of practice rather than sorry futures.
Lamont Lindstrom, Cargo Cult: Strange Stories of Desire from Melanesia and Beyond (1993).

The Cargo cult phenomenon is not as simple as that, of course. On the one hand, it is a way of life. On the other hand, it is, perhaps, the shortest path to enlightenment (satori):
You see, many of the troubles going on in the world right now are being supervised by people with very good intentions whose attempts are to keep things in order, to clean things up, to forbid this, and to prevent that. The more we try to put everything to rights, the more we make fantastic messes. Maybe that is the way it has got to be. Maybe I should not say anything at all about the folly of trying to put things to right but simply, on the principle of Blake, let the fool persist in his folly so that he will become wise.
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Alan_Watts
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/William_Blake
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satori


Why is Linux sucking so miserably?

Novell Incorporated: Convergence of Windows and GNU/Linux Since 2006
http://techrights.org/2008/10/14/conver ... s-and-gnu/
Google's Android code deleted from Linux kernel
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/02/03 ... ux_kernel/

The convergence of M$ Windows and GNU/Linux is a convergence of crap of a similar nature. The users of crap seem to experience the same problems with cheap laptops (such as Dell notebooks, and other crap):
Fan Always Runs Or Laptop Overheats And Shuts Itself Off
Warning! Before Disassembling Laptop always unplug power and remove the battery.

Laptops that shut down without warning are often experiencing overheating issues. Overheating may be a symptom of age, of clogged ventilation or impending failure, but it can also result from simply using the laptop in a bad location. Before you try to take the laptop apart to look for problems, it pays to patiently troubleshoot the symptoms and see if an easy fix is possible...
Read more: http://www.ifitjams.com/overheat.htm

The difference is that Linux tends to overload processor, and, therefore, the problem of overheating might be more severe.
Do not forget that ACPI is "a very advanced crap", which can cause malfunctioning of fans and overheating of processors. Notice that Linux kernel developers proved to be Novell/Micro$oft Fellows (that why Google's Android code was deleted from Linux kernel):
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/02/03 ... ux_kernel/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novell#Agr ... _Microsoft
If the Linux kernel has already been somehow privatized by Novell/Micro$oft, it might not be surprising that Linux is sucking so miserably.

There seems to be something fishy going on. Have you noticed very strange kernel bugs, or ACPI backdoors camouflaged as bugs? For example:
http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel/1227895
https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?pid=1028777
https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=136911

Whether it is a kind of backdoor, or simply a very advanced open-source crap which might be easily exploited by "evil hackers" and three-letter agencies http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.p ... r+Agencies it continues to destroy laptops with Arch Linux installed:
[Arch Linux] laptop going to meltdown [2012-05-31]
I've only recently installed arch but i worked fine until the last update I did.
Since then my cooling fan hasn't been comming on after boot (it starts untils arch boots).
I've looked into it and found this :
# sensors
acpitz-virtual-0
Adapter: Virtual device
temp1: +81.0°C (crit = +120.0°C)
temp2: +81.0°C (crit = +120.0°C)
coretemp-isa-0000
Adapter: ISA adapter
Core 0: +79.0°C (high = +100.0°C, crit = +100.0°C)
Core 1: +79.0°C (high = +100.0°C, crit = +100.0°C)
Is there any way to bring the crit temperature down please.
Thanks for any help you can offer.
ps:if it's of any importance I'm on a HP pavillion dv2500.
https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=142468

This seems to mean that Arch Linux update may destroy your notebook, if the very advanced crap (that is, ACPI) is not disabled. However, "acpi=off" may cause problems, for example:
[Arch Linux] Poweroff doesn't work with acpi=off [2012-06-15]
shutdown -hP now, poweroff etc results in halt but not poweroff. I have to press the power button (lightly) for it to finally power off.
All the daemons stops, then it says
> POWER OFF
[(number)] System halted.
Then it doesn't turn off. It works without the "acpi=off", but then the computer freezes when the fan turns on.
Reboot works fine.
System:
HP Compaq nx6125, i686, 3.3.8-1-ARCH
https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=143406

What is more, "acpi=off" may render Arch Linux unbootable on a Dell notebook. If it happens, and Arch Linux fails to boot, an Ubuntu refugee may simply boot an Ubuntu LiveCD (preferably, an old stable release) and edit menu.lst of Arch Linux. Alternatively, one may boot "Arch Linux Fallback" and fix menu.lst with nano text editor:

Code: Select all
# nano /boot/grub/menu.lst

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_nano
GRUB1: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Grub
Ubuntu 8.04.4 LiveCD ISO can be downloaded here: http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/releases/8.04.4/release/

If "acpi=off" causes troubles, one may try "acpi=oldboot"
Common Kernel Options
acpi=oldboot Deactivates the ACPI system almost completely; only the components required for the boot process will be used.
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/BootO ... el_Options
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